User talk:CHGiffen/Archive 3

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Recent edit to Juan Gutierrez de Padilla's composer page

Hi Chuck. In a recent edit to Juan Gutierrez de Padilla's composer page, you deleted some names suggested as the composer's aliases. Was that intentional? --Bobnotts talk 07:08, 2 January 2008 (PST)

Hi Rob, the alternatives were: Padilla, Juan Guti�rrez de; de Padilla, Juan Gutierrez (and the boxed letter should be é). Under Bibliography, a user had pointed out that the name should be alphabetized (sorted) under G, as Gutiérrez de Padilla, Juan. This is essentially correct; actually, the sort should be under "Gutierrez de Padilla, Juan" to get the "é" alphabetized with "e" (see the Wikipedia article). Note the composer is often simply referred to (at least in non-Spanish speaking circles) as "Padilla" (or sometimes "de Padilla") ... it's somewhat analgous to referring to Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina as "Palestrina". I meant to go back and move the page to Juan Gutiérrez de Padilla so as to correct the spelling and also to address the Aliases issue, but I was involved with other work at the time. Sorry. I note the following alphabetizations of other Spanish composers: Ginés Pérez de la Parra (currently alphabetized under "Pérez de la Parra, Ginés"), Tomás de Torrejón y Velasco (under "Torrejón y Velasco, Tomás de"), Pedro Aranaz y Vides (under "Aranaz y Vides, Pedro"), Pau Casals i Defilló (under "Casals i Defilló, Pau" - a.k.a. Pablo Casals), Juan Blas de Castro (under "Blas de Castro, Juan"). -- Chucktalk Giffen 23:56, 2 January 2008 (PST)
Thanks for that, Chuck. I don't know nearly as much about him as you so I'll leave you to finish what you started! It just seemed that you forgot to come back to the page. Cheers --Bobnotts talk 04:27, 3 January 2008 (PST)

Translated pages

Hi Chuck. I've just been adding the French translation of the score submission guide to the appropriate places and saw Template:Dutch pages and Template:Italian pages. Then I thought "Surely Chuck meant to have them as categories rather than templates?" so I created cats (Category:Dutch pages, Category:Italian pages and Category:French pages) for the languages without realising that you may have wanted an editable list so that the title of the page could be in English and the transla language. Duh! (I hadn't deleted your pages at this stage - they are still here: Template:Italian pages and Template:Dutch pages). If this is what you had in mind, it's probably a good idea, unless the amount of translated pages gets so big that it's unwieldy to have an manually added page... so we could include the English and translated title in the title of the page so that it displays correctly in a category... probably too complicated for what we need. Anyway, if we go back to a manually edited list, perhaps it should be in the ChoralWiki namespace, not Template? Sorry for messing things up. --Bobnotts talk 20:59, 7 January 2008 (PST)

Hi Rob. "Surely Chuck meant ... " wasn't my thought, but wanting an editable list as you describe was exactly what I had in mind. I think it will be a long, long time before such list pages become too unwieldy, and I don't really like the idea of having a double (two language) title for such pages. However, one might, say in the case of the Dutch translation, put a redirect to Help:Score submission guide (Dutch) on a page titled Handleiding bij het publiceren van partituren - or vice versa - and on the page with the title in Dutch (even if it is a redirect) one can put Category:Dutch pages, which will cause the category page to give titles in Dutch. -- Chucktalk Giffen 01:10, 8 January 2008 (PST)
That looks good, should we now delete Category:Dutch pages, Category:French pages and Category:Italian pages? It seems pointless to have a duplicate list. Sorry again for the mix up. --Bobnotts talk 22:05, 9 January 2008 (PST)
Hi Rob and thanks. No, if you look at, say, Category:Dutch pages, it now simply gives the Dutch language title of the page. This is because I put [[Category:Dutch pages]] on the redirect page Handleiding bij het publiceren van partituren. I decided to have the redirects go from the target language title to the English titled page, instead of the other way around ... mostly because I think it is easier for most of us to keep track of translated pages if the titles are in the form "<title> (<language>". Also, I have the flags point to the (foreign titled) redirect pages, while the name of the foreign language links are to the ChoralWiki list pages. At first this was an oversight, but in hindsight I see it gives a user both alternatives. -- Chucktalk Giffen 23:46, 9 January 2008 (PST)

Language cats

Hi Chuck,

I noticed you've been implementing language categories. Much as I agree with the concept, it is likely to bring out a problem in the cats 'Russian' and 'Church Slavonic', since many editors seem to be unaware of the difference between them and assign the wrong cat to their scores. Any thoughts on this? Cordially, joachim 21:54, 28 January 2008 (PST)

Hi Joachim. I was already well aware of there being confusion on the part of some contributing editors of the difference between Russian and Church Slavonic, and in my hurry to get things up to speed with the Works in <langauge> categories, I didn't check the Arensky Otche nash - indeed it is in Church Slavonic - I had simply copied Fowler's Russian language tag over into the new Language template. Thanks for correcting the category. I think we'll just have to check the various Russian and Church Slavonic entries and change those which are wrong. -- Chucktalk Giffen 01:09, 29 January 2008 (PST)

Italian ?

The recently posted new work I posted for Sabine Cassola: O dulce nomen Jesu a 4 (Orazio Tarditi)

I was going to reverse your edit - but then I thought I'd check...

The work that I posted for Sabine Cassola - your edit that it be categorized as a "Work in English" ? Shouldn't it be "Work in Latin"

I also wasn't sure of my designation as SSAB - (also the other 3 works I posted for her.) Johnhenryfowler 04:48, 7 February 2008 (PST)

My bad, John. But it's not Italian either, it's Latin. I'll fix it now. -- Chucktalk Giffen 04:54, 7 February 2008 (PST)

My cut and paste multiplied the "Italian" boo-boo. I've fixed the others. By the way where is the current template for the "works page" and "composer page"? I'm using an out-of-date template file... Johnhenryfowler 05:04, 7 February 2008 (PST)

Score pages without editions

Hi Chuck. I've just come across Astiterunt reges terrae (Carlo Gesualdo) which you recently edited. There are other score pages which just contain the text of a work, though I can't find any of them at the moment. I have commented out the categories on that page because it seems to me that users browsing a category called "sheet music" don't want to be presented with a page without any of the same. I also removed your cleanup notice becuause it has been suggested to me in the past that score information including texts and translations have a place on CPDL even if there is no edition available. Perhaps some other categories should be left on the page... what are your thoughts? --Bobnotts talk 08:48, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Good idea to comment out Sheet music and the other categories, at least for the time being. I wasn't thinking when I went through those scores today. I had encountered them earlier and left Cleanup templates. I forgot who initially made the pages, and right now I'm in a hurry. (sorry) ... Chucktalk Giffen 12:14, 8 February 2008 (PST)

A couple of things

Hi Chuck. Good to see your work on accompaniments taking shape... now I've just got to get my head round Template:KbdVer!! Complicated stuff (but as simple as it can be, I know). I was just about to clear out a load of pages to be deleted and came to the point of archiving discussion. Where there is unanimous agreement to delete, do you think we need to archive? I was thinking specifically about ChoralWiki:Report error and the associated talk page - seems pointless to archive. In other news, my progress with a bot is rather slow... the AutoWiki Browser won't work on CPDL because the wiki isn't sufficiently up to date and the Python system is fairly complicated (and also may not work because the wiki software isn't up to date... grr!) Having the wiki software up to date would also increase the usefulness of what you're doing at the mo 'cos the DPL system can be used to combine categories (so I can look for English anthems with organ accomp.) but not if it's not up to date... I feel an email to Raf is necessary.

P.S. Just got your message about Parsons - np. Would you mind looking at Deliver me from mine enemies (Robert Parsons)? --Bobnotts talk 01:03, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Hi Rob. With unanimous agreement to delete, archiving the deletion discussion does indeed seem to be a bit of superfluous overkill. -- Chucktalk Giffen 09:54, 1 March 2008 (PST)

"Edition notes" line on score pages

Hi Chuck. I've noticed that you have been removing the line "Editon notes" under editions in your routine score page tidying. Did you have any particular reason for doing this? My reason for retaining the line even when there isn't any edition info is that an inexperienced person may come along and want to report a score error, for example, and not know where to include it. In the same way that we don't remove the lines "Published" if we don't know when the work was published, nor the line "external links" when there aren't any links (yet), I reckon the "Edition notes" line should be retained for future use. --Bobnotts talk 00:49, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Hi Rob. Okay, I'll refrain from removing empty "Edition notes:" fields. I guess I've been trying a bit too arduously to keep file sizes down! Your point is well taken about ScoreError (which I haven't tended to put in Edition notes, but will in the future). -- Chucktalk Giffen 00:53, 6 March 2008 (PST)
Glad we see eye to eye on this one. Good work, as always, on integrating the new templates. Keep up the good work! I've almost finished uploading Drew Collins's missing editions... --Bobnotts talk 01:09, 6 March 2008 (PST)
And I'm glad you located and have been uploading the Drew Collins editions, too! -- Chucktalk Giffen 01:47, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Language template

Hi Chuck. We could do with a new language template, or an alteration to the existing one to add additional languages. At the moment, the existing template works great for scores which have text from 2 languages, like a Mass (Greek and Latin) but that's not appropriate for a work which may be sung in either one language or another (eg. Lobt Gott, ihr Christen all zugleich (Christoph Dalitz)). Some Christmas carols have been made available in many different languages (eg. Stille Nacht) so the template should be able to accommodate at least 5 variables, I reckon. Also, I think that for a work like Stille Nacht whcih was originally written in German, this should be made clear under the "General information", with other languages that the text has been translated into noted separately. What do you think is the best way to proceed? --Bobnotts talk 03:09, 8 March 2008 (PST)

Hi Rob. The description on Category:Works by language reads:
This subcategory of Sheet music gives links to subcategories of works classified by language of the text underlay. Click on a subcategory to find a list of all works which have been categorized as having text underlay in that language.
And the description on Category:Works in English (by way of example) reads:
Works in this subcategory of Category:Works by language have been categorized as having text underlay in English. For pages which contain actual texts in English, see Category:English texts.
I was aware of the point you raise above when I rewrote the template (stealing from Philip's original), and I tried to choose wording for {{WksLangTxt}} that does not distinguish between multiple languages for one work as opposed to the same work in different languages - and I hoped the one template would suffice (and I've already used it in instances where there the same work has scores in different languages or, more often, where more than one text underlay has been supplied for a single score). I'm guessing you are thinking of something that sets of the original language (or languages) from renderings in other languages. This, of course, still begs the question of those works for which the composer him/herself supplies more than one rendering ... I'm guilty of this in Creator of the stars of night, where I supply also the Latin text underlay (and unabashedly put in {{language|2|English|Latin}}). Anyway, let me give it some thought. Oh, also, you're right that the Language template at present can handle only up to 4 languages - making it necessary to handle more languages by hand. -- Chucktalk Giffen 05:50, 8 March 2008 (PST)

BBS is not accepting new posts

Hi Chuck,

The BBS is not accepting new posts. When you try you get the following message: This explains the lack of posts for the past 4 days... Johnhenryfowler 00:27, 12 March 2008 (PDT)


Could not insert new word

DEBUG MODE

INSERT IGNORE INTO phpbb_search_wordlist (word_text, word_common) VALUES ('posting', 0), ('test', 0)

Line : 234 File : functions_search.php

Thanks, John. I'll have to look into the matter - not just sure what can be done without taking a careful look. Hopefully a fix can be made through the Administrator control panel. -- Chucktalk Giffen 00:57, 12 March 2008 (PDT)
CPDL now has an alternative, internal Bulletin board, which some might find easier to use than the somewhat crippled external BB. -- Chucktalk Giffen 00:36, 14 March 2008 (PDT)

Quand l'ennuy facheux - your edits

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for cleaning up my latest contribution. I couldn't help but notice you changed the language from French into English. Any reason for this? The score is, after all, in French. Cordially, joachim 23:29, 13 March 2008 (PDT)

Hi joachim. Mea culpa. Sorry I typed English instead of French (I'm not sure why, unless I was cleaning up several works at the time with quite a few of them in English). -- Chucktalk Giffen 23:33, 13 March 2008 (PDT)

Template:Cat looking a bit strange

Hi Chuck. I've just been doing a few bits of tidying up and noticed Template:Cat looks a bit wonky on Psalmen Davids, Op. 2 (Heinrich Schütz) and Sfogava con le stelle (Claudio Monteverdi). Have you altered the template recently? --Bobnotts talk 10:40, 14 March 2008 (PDT)

Hi Rob. I found the mistake ( "3|" instead of "3" ) and fixed it. All seems to be okay now. Sorry for the goof. -- Chucktalk Giffen 11:10, 14 March 2008 (PDT)
Thanks Chuck. I figured I could wade in there and try to sort it out myself but I'd probably mess things up! --Bobnotts talk 21:21, 14 March 2008 (PDT)


Sorry to bring this up again, Chuck, but I wonder if you might take another look at Template:Cat since I noticed a couple of irregularities. The following are categorised under "{" in Operas with the template:

I assume it's to do with the optional third variable, the sort key. Any ideas? --Bobnotts talk 10:41, 19 March 2008 (PDT)

Hi Rob. I did the wrong "fix" earlier. The change had made a required 3rd parameter. How silly of me! I've fixed it now so that if there is no 3rd parameter, then the sort key defaults to the first parameter (as it should). -- Chucktalk Giffen 11:22, 19 March 2008 (PDT)
That's great - thanks Chuck! --Bobnotts talk 23:17, 19 March 2008 (PDT)

Adding cats manually

Hi Chuck,

Great work on the cats lately - exactly the thing we need to search as precisely as possible. I was wondering, though, whether supplying them by hand as you and Bob have been doing is really the only way to do this. Wouldn't it be possible to, say, incorporate these items in the "Add works" form and have them converted to cats on the score page, so that at least the new additions needn't be revised manually? I'm not sufficiently familiar with the intricacies of Wiki, so this is just from the top of my head. Cordially, joachim 23:52, 19 March 2008 (PDT)

Thanks for your kind words, joachim! Unfortunately, at present, it is unlikely that the "add works" form (which is a non-Wiki thing) will be changed very soon (although, if it is, it should incorporate the improvements that admins have been making). Some of us have been toying with (and actually working on) a Wiki-based alternative to the forms for adding works, composers, etc. And I think part of our category improvements are helping in working out just how best to implement these alternatives. Of course, just recently, I've been busy setting up (and debugging) the "alternative" Bulletin board, but at least that work seems to be more-or-less finished for the present. BTW, I do appreciate all that you are doing to make things better here, too! -- Chucktalk Giffen 00:02, 20 March 2008 (PDT)
Hi Chuck, thanks for that (rather discouraging...) answer. Still, as long as we have to add these cats manually, I was wondering if there was a list of all possible cats that newbie editors such as myself could refer to, rather than causing you (or Bob) extra work by messing things up. A comprehensive overview would give (me) something to hold on to while revising pages. Cordially, joachim 05:06, 24 March 2008 (PDT)
Hi joachim. Good idea! I'm off to do some tutoring now, but we'll try to come up with something more than just here and there sorts of things. -- Chucktalk Giffen 05:50, 24 March 2008 (PDT)

Archives: 010203040506070809