User talk:MartinDietze

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Welcome

Hi Martin, welcome to CPDL! Thank you for posting so many contributions. Just one note: we currently use English transliteration for titles of works in languages that use a different writing system. I'm more used with Russian than with Ukrainian, though; if you don't agree with any of my transliterations, please let me know. Best regards, —Carlos (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2012 (CDT)

Carlos, thank you for your help. The transliteration looks good so far. The Ukrainian cyrillic script differs from the Russian one in some pretty confusing details: the Russian letter г ("g") means "h" in Ukrainian, the letter и ("i") means "y" in Ukrainian (similar sound to the Russian ы), then the russian э and е are е and є in Ukrainian respectively. There are still the Tropary and Kondakions not transliterated. Since I cannot rename articles, how would you suggest to go ahead? I could simply create new ones or wait for you to rename the existing articles :) MartinDietze (talk) 14:29, 25 October 2012 (CDT)
Thanks for the tips! As much as possible I tried to follow the "National" transliteration system as given in w:Romanization of Ukrainian, unless there was a more traditional form in English. Regarding renaming pages, you will be able to do it when you achieve a couple of minimum system requirements (account age and frequency of use). It's better to rename the ones you already created, I'll do it soon. —Carlos (talk) 09:18, 26 October 2012 (CDT)
OK, fine! MartinDietze (talk) 10:32, 26 October 2012 (CDT)
Having added the Prokimens I now found that there are three different conventions: "Tropar of the Sunday in the 1st tone", "Kontakion in the 1st tone" (to me this looks misspelled with the 't', it should read "Kondakion"), and finally "Prokimen hol. 1" (sorry, I found your renaming only after I had added the new entries). I hate to ask you again, but can we rename the "Kontakions" and "Prokimens" following the same scheme applied with the Tropars? It would then read "Kondakion of the Sunday in the 1st tone" and "Prokimen of the Sunday in the 1st tone" respectively. Also, what do you think about the idea of suffixing all of them with "(Ukrainian)"? Since most people will expect them to be in church-slavonic this would seem helpful to me. MartinDietze (talk) 03:53, 27 October 2012 (CDT)
Hi, I followed the spelling of w:Kontakion as adopted by the English Wikipedia; Kondakion seems more common in other languages, as in French. The reference to all these works being "Ukrainian" could go inside each page, in the "Description" section (although it does not seem necessary, in my opinion, since "(Kievan/Galician chant)" already implies it. Also, stylistically it's not recommended to add double pairs of parentheses in the title. Don't worry about the renaming, that's what we're here for. :) —Carlos (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2012 (CDT)
May I interject here, since I have had some experience with Ukrainian and other Slavic liturgical music and the rendering of titles in English. First, I corrected the links to the PDFs and MIDs on the Kontakian pages, because they pointed to the corresponding PDFs and MIDs for the Troparia. Second, the traditional English term for Tropar is Troparion, following the Greek origin of the Slavonic word. Third, it is not idiomatic English to speak of, say, Troparion of the Sunday in the 1st tone ... rather, and as with the original titling before transliteration, it should simply be Troparion, tone 1; moreover, this is by the common anaolgy of, say, Magnificat, mode 1 in western liturgical music. In particular, note that "of the Sunday" is normally to be understood and should be omitted (Troparia for other dates would be of the form, say, Troparion for the Nativity of Christ). At any rate, "of the Sunday" is not idiomatic at all, but, if the mention of Sunday is to be retained, it should either be "of Sunday" or "for Sunday" (e.g. Troparion for Sunday, tone 1). My strongest recommendation is to use the following:
Troparion, tone 1
Kontakion, tone 1
Prokimen, tone 1
(and similarly for other tones).   Chucktalk Giffen 02:17, 28 October 2012 (CDT)
Thanks to you two for your help (and, gasp, for correcting the slightly embarrassing copy-and-past problem with the links). First, I agree to the comment on the Troparions and Kondakions. I must admit that I am used to that terminology in Ukrainian and Church-Slavonic, thus I happily leave that decision to you. The "of the Sunday" is however necessary for the Prokimens since there are different Prokimens for the evening service on Saturady. Concerning the term "Ukrainian" in the title I might go along with what you wrote, Carlos, but I'd like to mention that Kyivan chant is used in Russia as well as in Ukraine and the language is usually Church-Slavonic. Thus people will normally expect the material to be in Church-Slavonic rather than Ukrainian. However, again I'll go along with what you think is most consistent with the rest of the library.MartinDietze (talk) 02:32, 28 October 2012 (CDT)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 10:51, 28 October 2012 (CDT)

 Help 

My mistake about the Prokimens, Martin. Thanks for reminding me! In that case the style for the Prokimens should be:

Prokimen for Sunday, tone 1

May I add that I am delighted that you have posted all these Ukrainian versions! They are an invaluable resource. Are more to come?

Thank you, I'm glad to see that there are people interested in this. I still have one or two pieces to add. Then there are all the тропари and кондаки for specific occasions. Since my choir does not know the 8 tones very well I usually typeset them. You can find them on my site (see the pages related to the pieces). If you feel that this material, too, would be useful just let me know, I myself don't really see the necessity. Apart from that I'm currently working on a панахида in Galician style in SATB (the one we have now is only SA). Once that one is done it will end up here as well :) MartinDietze (talk) 11:52, 28 October 2012 (CDT)

Kievan chant?

Hi again, the page Kyivan Style, Sacred created by you requires a renaming or a merge. Since you linked it to the wikipedia article for the Znamenny chant (which already exists), should I merge your editions in that page, or instead rename this page to Kievan chant? In this site it is said that Znamenny and Kievan are not exactly the same thing, that's why I'm in doubt. Thanks, —Carlos (talk) 17:58, 24 October 2012 (CDT)

Carlos, that link you gave me is much better than the article in Wikipedia. I linked to "znamenny chant" because that was the only reference vaguely related. After having read that article I'd suggest renaming the section to 'Kyivan chant' (I would prefer the Ukrainian transcription with respect to the fact that Kyiv is Ukraine's capital). The background is well explained there, briefly, the Kyivan chant succeeded the Znamenny chant. The style is entirely different, has more western influence. Actually, there's still a few liturgical pieces I would like to add, which are Lvivian chant (I simply hesitated since I was not sure on how to categorize this correctly). While Kyivan chant is widely used in most of Russia and the orthodox part of Ukraine, Lvivian chant is more popular in Western Ukraine which was part of Poland and the Habsburg Empire while the larger part of Ukraine had been part of the Russian Empire since the 17th century. Again the same question - would you like me to create a new category under the new name, or will you just do the renaming? If you are fine with the proposed naming convention, I would then add another category for Lvivian chant and add some information to both sections, basically what has been written here... MartinDietze (talk) 14:29, 25 October 2012 (CDT)
Thanks for clarifying this point; I agree with you that these chants should go in a different page than Znamenny. I only disagree with respect to the transliteration to use. Although Kyiv is the proper transliteration, w:Kiev is an already established name in English, and "Kievan chant" produces at least 3 times more results in Google than "Kyivan chant". Kievan seems also to be the preferred form used by most of the Orthodox Church sites in the U.S. - Also regarding the Lvivian chant, is there another name by which it is known? I could find virtually no results in Google for "Lvivian chant"/"Lvovian chant". —Carlos (talk) 09:18, 26 October 2012 (CDT)
OK, regarding Kyivan/Kievan we may then put 'Kyivan' into the additional tags, so that we get matches for 'Kyivan', too. Regarding 'Lvivian' I checked for synonyms and found 'Galician chant' which is roughly the same. The term "Львівський розспів" may not be generally used in the same way as in the church where I conduct my choir. Again, I'll see that I add it as some kind of keyword. MartinDietze (talk) 10:32, 26 October 2012 (CDT)
Hi, thanks for already creating Galician chant. I've also made Kyivan chant a redirect to Kievan chant. —Carlos (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2012 (CDT)

Automated tasks

Hi Martin, I was going to run a ReplaceText routine in order to substitute the "parish" typo, but you were quicker than me this time. Whenever you find something that requires mass replaces, just ask one of the admins to do it, we have a couple of special tools for that. Regards, —Carlos (talk) 04:24, 6 November 2012 (CST)

Thanks, that's good to know. Wikis are not really a pleasant technology for doing that stuff manually :) MartinDietze (talk) 04:27, 6 November 2012 (CST)