User talk:Robert Urmann

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Hi Robert. Thanks so much for all the work you're doing here, adding Brahms editions and texts. It's not gone unnoticed! --Bobnotts talk 11:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Bob! (Actually, this is a short form for Robert, isn't it?) I'm doing my best to overhaul the Brahms page step by step thoroughly. I noticed, that Arthur Reutenauer has adopted the composer, and I tried to contact him recently to avoid some hassle. Still, he hasn't replied yet. Hope, my changes are welcome, though. --Robert Urmann 12:29, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Op. 93a

THANK YOU so much for the full edition of Op. 93a! I had requested that. It WAS one of the very, very few works of Brahms to not be available in complete score format somewhere on the internet (due to Lübeck only having the vocal parts). I GREATLY appreciate it, and have linked it from my Brahms website —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hansenkd (talkcontribs) on 05:44, 12 August 2009.

Dear Kelly, nice site that you've created out there! I added a link to your listening guide on the work's page, too. If you don't mind I would also add some more links to your guides on the respective work pages–just like you did from your site ;-)
Be assured that my own scores feature proper bar numbering! I'm aware of the "upbeat counting problem" throughout many editions on CPDL, but it's impossible to fix every single score or contact each editor. There are no designated proof-readers on CPDL. If one likes to report score errors: there is a score error template available, which can be used to mark these and other mistakes. Anyway, if there are questions concerning op. 93a (or others), feel free to contact me. I'm still researching in some handwritten revisions in No. 1 (the "Rosenkranz" passage in alto part). As soon as I can confirm changes by the composer I'll post a revised edition. All best wishes. --Robert Urmann 10:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks much, Robert! You can obviously link my guides as much as you want! I'm anxious for more and more links wherever I can get them (I might try to lobby IMSLP for the same thing for their individual works pages.) The Breitkopf & Härtel complete edition does indeed have a different alto part for "Rosenkranz." It also omits the "und lustig" part of the tempo marking. I'll have to listen to my recording to see which version it reflects. EDIT--sounds like my recording (NDR-Chor, Günter Jena, DG complete edition) uses the version in the Gesamtausgabe, not the first edition.
Hansenkd 00:49, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Kelly, I can confirm these changes. I’ll include it in my edition(s) along with some remarks on the first print and Brahms’ later revisions. Keep in touch, Robert Urmann 11:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


Hi again, Robert!

It's a strange coincidence that you posted the Marienlieder score just today, as I'm starting my guide on those pieces--today! And it's also strange that you don't have a translation for verse 7 of No. 4 because I just contacted Emily Ezust today to tell her that her text (and translation) for that song are missing--the seventh verse!! Spooky.

Anyway, I saw that you chose to notate the music of No. 7 twice rather than trying to fit the text of all five verses in one score. It looks like there is an upbeat error (and as a result, a 4/4 bar with three beats) in the second repetition of the music. Probably because all sources have only two beats in the last measure (because the music is in 3/4 at that point, not 4/4, so the upbeat is still part of a 3/4 measure in the subsequent verses).

Was No. 4 the only one for which a score didn't exist (mainly by Rafael Ornes) before?

Let me know when you change that alto part in Op. 93a or if you add any more links to my guides. I just finished the Op. 110 motets, and would love to have a good score (that doesn't use C-clefs) of No. 3. I'm also hoping the Regina coeli, Op. 37, No. 3, might go up sometime.

Thanks for all your great work! Hansenkd 20:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Good God, Kelly!!! This must be from above …
I must confess that the translation for No. 4 is leaned against Emily’s. So, if she doesn’t have one for the 7th verse, maybe you could provide one? It’s only two lines, and I’d be glad to assist. For Germans, too, the vocabulary is kind of outdated. So, if German isn’t one’s mother tongue (and even ‘modern’ Germans don’t have an increased interest in old fashioned language) it’s hard to interprete. It would be great if we could cleanup some peculiar passages, e.g. the singular/plural cases in No. 1: the original text reads „die Engel“ which is plural; this is interpreted in singular case. I feel this isn’t the best solution … And also the passage in No. 7: I suppose it’s the …-thing [I’ll write a PM]. Please, give it a try – I don’t expect singable lyrics ;-) Btw, all songs of op 62 have official translations authorized by Brahms himself! See the Lübeck first prints.
As to No. 7: You’re absolutely right concerning the measure counting! This happens when people like me split it into two parts :-( The reason simply is readability. You might have noticed how the first print handles each of the five stanzas: the first one below the soprano, the second below the alto, … that’s an outdated habit, not very useful in [choir/rehearsal/performance] practice. However, I’ll stick to the source, which means parenthesized bar numbers in conformance with the other stanzas, and, of course, correct my silly upbeat mistake! (I’d swear it wasn’t there yesterday …)
Yes, No. 4 had been the only unset score till now.
Oh, op 93a has already been corrected, but not uploaded, yet … wait a minute. While you’re working on the Marienlieder I would dive into setting Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein. C clef reading always is a good exercise. I can’t promise how long it will take (editing, not exercising C clef reading); give it some time, please. Next will be – I’ll take it as a score request – Regina coeli! Will also add links to your valuable guides step by step, but allow time for editing, too ;-)
Yours truly, --Robert Urmann 21:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
The editions in question are now revised and online. Thank you for your attention – I don’t want to have a yellow score error warning beneath my submissions! --Robert Urmann 08:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There is one more bugaboo with No. 7, and it's impossible to know what is correct because of the idiotic text underlay in the first edition (which was taken up wholesale in the B&H Gesamtausgabe). Listening to my recording of the piece, the trailing altos and tenors repeat not "fallen in Finsternis," but instead "vor dir in Finsternis" in stanza 4. In stanza 5, the repetition is "so scheid ich fröhlich, so scheid ich fröhlich hin" instead of "so scheid ich fröhlich hin, scheid ich fröhlich hin." That was obviously just Jena's interpretation. Based on the sources, it's simply impossible to know which underlay is correct, and I wonder if even the Henle Neue Ausgabe sämtlicher Werke will be able to sort it out whenever they publish these pieces. The situation is even worse with the bass parts in the last two verses of No. 5 from the Op. 41 male choruses. I'll have to email you privately about that one... Hansenkd 12:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I compared the full score and the voice parts: the text underlay now should be clear! (To my favour it sounds a bit odd to have ‘vor’ and ‘so’ on the downbeat, but that’s just my personal opinion.) --Robert Urmann 17:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't think about the voice parts! I guess there are THREE possible ways to interpret the alto/tenor underlay in stanza 5. 1. "hin" on the last beat of m. 14 and "scheid" on the downbeat of m. 15 (this is what the Ornes score has--it also has "fallen" instead of "vor dir" on the downbeat of m. 15 in stanza 4). 2. "hin" on the last beat of m. 14 and "so" on the downbeat of m. 15 (this is what you have now). 3. "so" on the last beat of m. 14 and "scheid" on the downbeat of m. 15--so cutting off "hin" in the first statement: "so scheid ich fröhlich, so scheid..." (it looks like THIS is what the parts have and it's what I hear on the recording). See, I really AM a pest. :-) Hansenkd 18:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Argh–I changed it wrong! You are right with the last stanza. I think, now I got it --Robert Urmann 18:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: copyright mp3 links usw

Hallo, Robert, vielen Dank für die an mich gerichteten Zeilen auf Julianes Diskussionsseite! - Sehr aufschlussreich! Grüße von Christoph --Christophero Manco 12:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Sandmännchen (Brahms)

Hallo, Robert, danke, dass du dich darum gekümmert hast! Eigentlich ist "Die Blümelein, sie schlafen" ja kein "echtes" Volkslied, sondern eine Komposition von Anton Wilhelm von Zuccalmaglio (1803-1869). Und der wiederum hat dabei lediglich auf die Melodie des Weihnachtsliedes "Zu Bethlehem geboren" zurückgegriffen. Aber das hat Herrn Brahms - wie so oft - nicht sonderlich bekümmert; ihm ging es mehr um die Qualität, weniger um die Echtheit. Bei habe ich übrigens eine Bearbeitung derselben Melodie aus der Feder von Franz Abt hochgeladen (mit französischem Text). Bis ich dies alles auf Englisch herausgebracht hätte, wären Stunden vergangen; deshalb habe ich's gelassen. Grüße von --Christophero Manco 23:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hallo Christoph, wenn ich schon gerade am Rechner hocke, kann ich ja auch gleich daran arbeiten ;-) Die Brahms-Seiten sind noch nicht bis in die letzte Ecke aufgeräumt. Und da es nicht nur Brahms um die Qualität ging, gebe ich mir viel Mühe mit den Seiten hier. Deine kleine Genese zum Sandmännchen kann ich gern einarbeiten, wenn du nichts dagegen hast.
Brahms hat ja nie heimlich geklaut und Melodien immer erkennbar gelassen. Den gemeinfreien Gedanken gab es auch damals schon (trotz verlegerischer Rechte). Außerdem war doch ein Mindestmaß an musikalischer Allgemeinbildung im Gegensatz zur heutigen Zeit selbstverständlich: jeder dürfte gewusst haben, um welche Melodie es sich handelt. Heutzutage landen Rapper Top-Charthits mit Pachelbel und Bach … und die Jugend denkt, es sei von Ice T. oder Eminem oder wem auch immer :-(
Der Liedtext zum Sandmännchen fehlt noch (kann ich ergänzen). Und da du gerade Brahms’ WoO 31 angerissen hast, fehlen eigentlich auch noch 14 weitere Nummern … ;-) Beste Grüße —Robert Urmann 00:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Habe gerade einen Blick auf deine Ergänzungen geworfen - die Seite ist toll geworden! Meine kleinen Anmerkungen kannst du ruhig einfügen. Auf deine Anregung hin habe ich mir vorhin die anderen Lieder vom WoO 31 im Brahms-Institut angesehen. Weil es so schön kurz ist, habe ich gleich das "Haidenröslein" abgeschrieben und dem Chef unserer Homepage zugeschickt. Sobald er es installiert hat, leite ich es hierhin weiter. Viele Grüße von Christoph. --Christophero Manco 22:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Haidenröslein/Heidenröslein (Brahms)

Hallo, Robert, habe dir auf meiner Seite geantwortet. Christophero Manco 22:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Dornröschen auf der Heyden

Hallo, Robert,

im "Schaukasten" unserer Homepage prangt zwar immer noch ein -a-, die Dateien selbst aber sind korrigiert: Heidenröslein, rot, usw. Also werde ich die Seite jetzt verschieben - hoffentlich richte ich dabei nicht wieder irgendetwas an. Dornröschen WoO 31,1 haben wir gleich hinterhergeschoben. Der Text ist unsäglich, das brahmssche Arrangement hingegen - wie fast immer - sehr schön. Text und Melodie sind auch hier wieder von Zuccalmaglio; diesmal hat er sich musikalisch beim Weihnachtslied "Als ich bei meinen Schafen wacht'" bedient. Nicht zuletzt zu Vergleichszwecken habe ich meinen Chorsatz des Liedes hier eingepflegt (das Wort kannte ich bis dato gar nicht). Herzliche Grüße von Christoph --Christophero Manco 22:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Brahms: Der Mann WoO 31,5

Hallo, Robert, vielen Dank für dein Eingreifen! Da der "Web-Chef" von Nova-Cantica ganz treffend anmerkte, dass diese Editionen ja nicht direkt mit dem Ensemble zu tun haben, habe ich DER MANN auf diese Weise hochgeladen. Vielleicht ist schon bei der Angabe der File-Orte im Formular etwas schief gelaufen; werde demnächst besser aufpassen. Ansonsten weiß ich ja anhand deiner Korrekturen nun, wie ich's selbst richten kann. Liebe Grüße - Christoph. --Christophero Manco 09:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Hallo Christoph, da hat wohl jemand Bedenken wegen erhöhtem Traffic??? ;-))
Das Add scores-Formular ist nicht gerade das am besten kommentierte bzw. ist die Formularausgabe mangelhaft. Es steht ja dort: If the file is uploaded or emailed, give the name(s) Dass man auch bei hochgeladenen Dateien den vollständigen URL angeben soll, findet man erst in der Anleitung (deren deutsche Übersetzung ich gerade überarbeite). Man kann später Datei.pdf mittels {{filepath:Datei.pdf}} referenzieren. Das ganze dann in eckige Klammern verpackt und mit dem Template für das PDF-Icon versehen erzeugt den anklickbaren Link: [{{filepath:Datei.pdf}} {{pdf}}]. LG, —Robert Urmann 11:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Psalm 13, Opus 27?

Hi, Robert!

Would I have any luck with a request for Psalm 13, Op. 27?? The external link here is not a very good score. An edition with the organ part on three staves would be wonderful! I just did the guide for this piece... Hansenkd 16:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Kelly, yes—you could have luck! I’ll add it to my queue. Best, —Robert Urmann 20:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you a splitter or a lumper?

Hi Robert,

Let me add my thanks too for your work on Brahms! I wonder if you already noticed this discussion of what you really meant ;-) Richard Mix 22:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Richard! As for me, I’d rather say I’m more a lumper than a splitter ;-) I’ll clarify my points of view on that interesting discussion at Schubert’s ‘Fünf Duette’ talk. Btw: Doesn’t it require some fondness for ‘splitting’ in some degree to discuss this matter that extensive, does it? :-) —Robert Urmann 20:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Romanzen und Balladen, Op. 67

Hi Robert, may we delete the old pdfs and midis that were replaced recently? Regards, —Carlos Email.gif 16:37, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Carlos, please, do so! Best, —Robert Urmann 22:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Eccart - Übers Gebirg

Hello Robert, possibly you read the email already, I am interested in the LilyPond files of Übers Gebirg Maria geht (Johannes Eccard) so I can prepare a two-page version (no page turning) and a piano reduction for rehearsal purposes. Best regards -- KlausFoehl 09:36, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

LilyPond advice

Hello, Robert,

I direct a professional choir in New Haven, Connecticut, US, and have admired and used your CPDL editions in many performances. In particular we have enjoyed the Brahms "Ich aber bin elend" and "Schaffe in mir, Gott" editions, but have used many others as well that I can't recall offhand.

Recently I learned the syntax of LilyPond, and have enjoyed creating scores with it. I prefer the Mensurstriche notation for early music, and it works very well with LilyPond. However, I cannot get the program to do a system (line) break in the middle of notes. I see that in your Tallis "O sacrum convivium" score, you have managed to get LilyPond to break between the third and fourth measures, even though the Superius note continues to the next system. How do you do this? All of the documentation seems to indicate that one cannot ask the program to do this, and it generates an error to this effect when I tell it bar "" and \break. Additionally, how do you achieve the "cut time" signature when the piece is in 4/2?

For example, it would be great to have the system break in Lassus "Benedicam Dominum" after m. 8, not before it. See .pdf and .ly files. By the way, I hope to submit this score to CPDL sometime in the near future, and others as well.

Many thanks! Noah (talk) 13:39, 19 November 2012 (CST)

Dear Noah,
thanks for using my editions!
Answering your LilyPond questions is quite simple:
(1) To allow line breaking during note events you have to remove the "Forbid_line_break_engraver" from the voice context. In most cases \bar "" and \break are not necessary. Mind that \bar "" makes the barline invisible.
(2) You can set time signature and measure length independently. In this case it is done by \set Score.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4 2)
Please, send me an e-mail via CPDL, so I can send you the revised ly-file.
Best —Robert Urmann (talk) 06:22, 20 November 2012 (CST)


Hallo Herr Urmann,

ich habe die Stimmbücher der Geistlichen Chormusik vor einigen Jahren als Dienstleistung von der BSB München als Papierkopie erworben. Die BSB hat vom BC-Stimmbuch kein Original, sondern nur eine Faksimile-Kopie aus der Herzog-August-Bibliothek Wolfenbüttel. Sie können sich dorthin wenden und wenden und um Anfertigung einer Kopie (heutzutage am Besten als PDF) bitten. Diese Dienste sind nicht sehr teuer (gemessen daran, dass die Werke in Handarbeit z.B. vom Mikrofilm eingescannt werden). In Regensburg habe ich jetzt 1€ pro Doppelseite bezahlt. Ich mache aber darauf aufmerksam, dass die Bibliothek nach Erhalt des Digitalisats dieses dann ungefähr nach einem halben Jahr für die Allgemeinheit veröffentlichen wird. Gruß Gerd Eichler

Er or er?

Hi, a quick question about Denn Er hat seinen Engeln befohlen über dir (Felix Mendelssohn) (which was moved from lower case "er"). I know the rules have changed for "Du/du"; has it ever been common to use "Er" for the deity? Richard Mix (talk) 05:31, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Dear Richard,
the use of upper/lowercase ‘er’ is quite inconsistent. It is similar to ‘LORD/Lord’ or ‘Him/him’. In poetry it might be spelled with uppercase ‘e’. Looking at Mendelssohn’s autograph, he used the small letter. Printed scores in the 19th century often used the uppercase version. Sorry for this unsatisfying explanation! —Robert Urmann (talk) 15:35, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Michael Praetorius: In dulci jubilo (Musae Sionia, Bd. 2. Nr. V)

Sehr geehrter Herr Urmann,

Sie haben Michael Praetorius: In dulci jubilo (Musae Sionia, Bd. 2. Nr. V) hier auf der CPDL als pdf zum Download zur Verfügung gestellt ( Die Datei ist mit LilyPond erstellt. Ich habe ein Editions-Projekt von Weihnachtsmusik gestartet ( Würden Sie mir Ihre LilyPond-Dateien für die Edition zur Verfügung stellen? (Nun singet und seid froh stellt seine Noten allerdings gemeinfrei zur Verfügung, und nicht unter der CPDL-Lizenz.) Ich wäre Ihnen sehr dankbar. Ich würde Ihre Noten nochmal gegen den Scan der Königlichen Bibliothek Kopenhagen ( korrekturlesen und Sie gegebenenfalls auf Fehler aufmerksam machen.

Herzliche Grüße

Jonathan Scholbach (talk) 16:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC)