Talk:O bone Jesu (Robert Parsons): Difference between revisions
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And what about pieces (generally post classical era) which are, say, four-part until the final cadence, in which one or two parts might divide (eg. for an octave doubling of the final bass note)? Does such a piece become a five- or six-part piece because of this? My guess is that most would say it does not, but I don't know what the best approach is. Do we need a mechanism for informing people that informs them the Parsons requires a minimum of 6 singers, the Tallis a minimum of 9 singers, the Pérotin a minimum of how many(?) singers, etc. And should this be a part of the Voicing (which I think is one thing) or perhaps another aspect (something like minimum number of singers designation)? | And what about pieces (generally post classical era) which are, say, four-part until the final cadence, in which one or two parts might divide (eg. for an octave doubling of the final bass note)? Does such a piece become a five- or six-part piece because of this? My guess is that most would say it does not, but I don't know what the best approach is. Do we need a mechanism for informing people that informs them the Parsons requires a minimum of 6 singers, the Tallis a minimum of 9 singers, the Pérotin a minimum of how many(?) singers, etc. And should this be a part of the Voicing (which I think is one thing) or perhaps another aspect (something like minimum number of singers designation)? | ||
In light of the principles given in the various voicing categories, such as {{CiteCat|4 part choral music}}, this needs more discussion. | In light of the principles given in the various voicing categories, such as {{CiteCat|4-part choral music}}, this needs more discussion. | ||
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Perhaps it's as well to consider what "gimell" actually means, i.e. ''gemelli'' - twins, i.e. a twofold division of a single voice-part, rather than the addition of a new part. As in most respects, this Parsons piece is unusual in that the gimell occurs within a "full", 5-part section rather than in one for reduced voices as is generally the case. One would hope (I'm always hopeful) that a choir director approaching a piece by Parsons (or White, Tye, Mundy, any of that gang) would already be aware of early Elizabethan performance practice - that scoring is generally varied between full and solo sections with frequent gimells in the latter - and not look to perform their works one to a part. But am I right in thinking that the number of voices - i.e. the description "5vv" etc. - that appears on works pages isn't actually searchable (other than a text search on "5vv" or whatever) - what is actually searchable is the categorisation AATTBB? (Even that's not too helpful if you're thinking of doing the piece transposed.) In which case, is my suggestion of keeping the "5vv" description for a piece such as White's ''Manus tuae'', while categorising it as AATTTTBB or whatever to cover all the gimells, in fact the best way to do it? As regards the description "5vv", both contemporary sources and modern editions insist on including it in lists of 5-voice compositions, so it would seem strange to do otherwise. (Reply added at the same time as Chuck's immediately above, so may not follow logically from it.) | Perhaps it's as well to consider what "gimell" actually means, i.e. ''gemelli'' - twins, i.e. a twofold division of a single voice-part, rather than the addition of a new part. As in most respects, this Parsons piece is unusual in that the gimell occurs within a "full", 5-part section rather than in one for reduced voices as is generally the case. One would hope (I'm always hopeful) that a choir director approaching a piece by Parsons (or White, Tye, Mundy, any of that gang) would already be aware of early Elizabethan performance practice - that scoring is generally varied between full and solo sections with frequent gimells in the latter - and not look to perform their works one to a part. But am I right in thinking that the number of voices - i.e. the description "5vv" etc. - that appears on works pages isn't actually searchable (other than a text search on "5vv" or whatever) - what is actually searchable is the categorisation AATTBB? (Even that's not too helpful if you're thinking of doing the piece transposed.) In which case, is my suggestion of keeping the "5vv" description for a piece such as White's ''Manus tuae'', while categorising it as AATTTTBB or whatever to cover all the gimells, in fact the best way to do it? As regards the description "5vv", both contemporary sources and modern editions insist on including it in lists of 5-voice compositions, so it would seem strange to do otherwise. (Reply added at the same time as Chuck's immediately above, so may not follow logically from it.) | ||
--[[User:DaveF|DaveF]] 15:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)}} | --[[User:DaveF|DaveF]] 15:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)}} | ||
Latest revision as of 15:30, 11 September 2012
Vaarky,
I've thought about your change of 5vv to 6vv and changed it back, while attempting to clarify the situation with the note about the Bass gimell. I absolutely see your point - if 5 solo singers got together to perform this piece, they'd find themselves a man down - but it is still a "5-part" piece; i.e. it's contained in 5 partbooks. I think if we tried to reflect every division when specifying the overall number of voices, we'd get into difficulties - some of White's psalm-motets, while in 5 parts, have multiple gimells that would take the overall number of voices up to 8 or 10, enough to make any choir director's heart sink at the sight. And what about those not infrequent cases in earlier 16th-century polyphony where a voice-part divides only at a final chord - would we want to specify two voice-parts throughout? So many pieces from this period are distinguished by their number of voices that I think we perhaps need to retain the "traditional" designation. (I don't think there are in fact any gimells in White's 5-part Lamentations, but if there were, we'd be calling them the 6-part Lamentations, to the endless confusion of users looking for the "real", much less well-known, 6-part ones.) I think that categorising a piece such as O bone Jesu as AATTBB is right and necessary for users searching for specific voicings, but I'd still like somehow to retain a mention of the actual number of voice-parts. My initial attempt is far from perfect, so please feel free to have a better idea.--DaveF 16:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
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This reminds me of the Tallis Gaude gloriosa Dei Mater, which is nominally for SATTBarB (6 parts), but has gymels for S, A, and B, so would require a total of 9 soloists. I gave the voicing for it as SATTBB and point out the divisi in the Description. |
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